#and we can learn about sua through ivan by looking at what he's not

[wodimewoahtime]

the course of ivans life is locked in by sua and i think he understands that a little

its ivan who will follow till, its till who will follow mizi, and its mizi who will follow sua (and sua follows mizi too ofc)

just round and around, they go in a circle till theyre picked off for slaughter

mizi doesnt know that, but sua does!!! sua does!!!!

mizi is unaware of the threat thats coming her way, so its up to sua to leave. she doesnt. theyre stuck. when sua follows mizi, ivan sees a priest digging her grave.

my view of ivan sua is very much "ivan is willing to break the system for till, but till wont follow him"

"ivan watches as sua sacrifices herself for mizi within the system"

"ivan is envious because the person she loves is willing to follow her anywhere but the best she can do is die"

i think it says a lot about suas passive suicidal ideation

[rockwgooglyeyes]

In and of itself, Nowhere is the prophecy that Ivan has written for himself, one of self destruction. Fitting for one of the most tragic characters in this show, the one whose love was requited but who never let it be anything due to his own stubbornness and blindness. Not only that but the way that he thinks of himself, as a monster who only serves to hurt those who he loves, is something that proves not to be true, necessarily, but it proves to be true through Ivan's twisted worldview as he hurt Sua by making fun of her sacrifice and he hurt Till by kissing him at the worst possible time. This song, Ivan's first solo since Black Sorrow, echoes that in being another self-fulfilling prophecy of Ivan's, another lie that he told himself so many times that he made it come true.

The repetition of musical elements such as the lifting scale of chimes, the swing of the instrumentals, the snare and percussion being pretty much the same every time only adding to the sensation of mounting foreboding up and up, a rising action that continues to rise but never truly reaches a climax, no culmination, no conclusion until death. My friend Zen (@verdantlights) called it eerie, and I agree. The way that the song all comes together, it feels like a tragedy unfolding in front of you, over and over, one that you know will happen and yet you can do nothing to prevent. It's almost like the "tainted history" that Ivan talks of, the repetition of events again and again over time, the way that history seems to be cyclical and we, as humans, never seem to truly learn.

In certain ways, the song is about the way that the perceived reality of the world and the world's actual reality are very, very different things. Considering the line about "a stiff dream dyed in rose-colored hues" that slowly changed to a dream dyed purple, to a dream dyed black, it is the way that when we are children we are able to hope for a better future than the one we think will actually come and how as we age, we are traumatized by the world to the point where we can no longer hope for anything better. Becoming someone who dismisses hope because you've tried hoping before and you only ended up with a kick in the gut and a punch in the face, well, that's a trauma response. We are all slowly traumatized over time into believing that the world can't get better, our rose-colored dreams becoming purple until they finally fade to black, blotted out by the corruption of memory, those times when we dared to dream and we were shot down from out of the sky, our wax wings not even given the chance to melt. We are beaten down by life, over and over again, until we are simply forced to go through the routine that society demands of us and say that we are content (wake up, wake up to the usual routine & wake up, wake up to this beautiful life, is it for real?).

The worst part is that Ivan knows better (a dustlike existence can't open its eyes to look. I close my eyes). The whole reason why Ivan admires Till so much in the first place is his willingness to fight, his hope for a future without slavery for humans, his unadulterated and true love. Ivan knows what hope feels like and he knows that he just can muster it anymore, too exhausted to be anything other than apathetic (the wounds that kept reopening just became numb), but he can still love Till's vivacity and drive for change. Ivan views himself as something dirty, something broken that only serves to break others. He thinks that he's a monster who can only do the people he loves harm, and to a degree, that's true, his belief a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Ultimately though, Ivan is an immensely unreliable narrator, someone so biased against himself and towards literally anyone else but someone who is so stubborn that he is unwilling to believe anyone else's opinions on him because they have never met his "true self" only the mask that he wears that he ends up digging a deeper and deeper hole. He thinks of his story as one that's already written, the repetition of the line "this always happens to me" echoing that, especially with the way that eventually that song ends with it repeated again, "yeah, it's always like that, this always happens to me." Ivan isn't trying to fight it because his dream has long since been stained black, despite the fact that he knows that he could break out of this cycle of despair. He knows this prophecy that he is submitting to is one that he wrote himself and yet, where he stands right now? He has no will to change it.

note: My friend Ish (@chevalperd) screenshotted @/ivantill7089 (on twitter)'s english translation of this song for me, which is what I am referencing for the lyrics! I love you Ish thank you again so much :3

[gold-pavilion]

Belonging and humanity (some more Ivan thoughts)

There's a big difference between knowing for a fact that you're a human being and getting to FEEL part of humankind. That's a thing that I feel Ivan sorely lacked. Some of his issues can definitely be traced back to it.

There's three things we know for certain about Ivan's early childhood nowadays, so let me start from those:

There were other humans around him in the slums, at least other children (for now it doesn't seem there were adults around, or none who would approach or care for the children).

However, we also know Ivan did not learn social behavior properly; for example, how or when to smile.

Going by the lonely tone of the song Nowhere and its emphasis on having no one, plus the previous point, we can infer there was no meaningful social contact with any people he knew/saw.

Ivan has been described as someone who is always learning to survive and his time in the slums must've been the same, after all; it's most likely that the other kids were competition to him (for food or other resources), threats or simply strangers with whom connections were never made.

That's to say, there were humans around Ivan but no "human community".

And that's the thing: take someone who went through a critical developmental stage with no one to care for or be cared by, learn social behavior with or practice the emotional exercises of understanding and empathy - ask that someone what "being a part of humankind" feels like, and what can he even make of it? It must not mean much more than categorizing a species, no feeling involved. And anyway, what difference does it make if there's anything else to say or not?

It's not like those are easy questions. None of the ALNST cast, with all their limitations, would be able to respond comprehensively.

But it changes things, the differences are there.

There are things that Till knows, from having a mother, learning from her and being enriched emotionally by their interaction, that I don't think he could describe but certainly has within him. Or Hyuna, who had a brother to feel that family bond and sense of community with, learning all sorts of positive social skills and having a heart full of room for empathy as she always looked out for the little Other Person next to her.

Beyond knowing their species, they know what it MEANS to be the rare and amazing human creature from these experiences of connecting, teaching, being taught, holding things in common, giving and receiving love. On an instinctual level they accessed what it feels like to be "part of humankind", which is so cool about them!!

Then you have cases like Mizi being too trusting of aliens because she was raised to feel community with one, Sua being mostly withdrawn because she didn't have a lot of warmth and community around her, Luka who was deprived of everything and then clung too hard to his first proper bond...

And Ivan, with his empty circumstances. There are a million things Ivan didn't learn and doesn't KNOW he lacked.

Of course that with his background he'd end up 1: being defensive by nature, having selfish tendencies, trouble processing emotion and socially weird habits and 2: feeling like a twisted being because of it, which is such a core aspect of his character. A human with less humanity but no idea why or how.

He adapted himself a lot once adopted, of course, and caught up an even bigger lot in his time in Anakt Garden. But I don't think he ever understood why he was "more twisted than others" and honestly, his intelligence and observance doesn't do him any favors on that front; on the contrary, I think it made him more aware of the gaps between him and other people.

And I really have to wonder if his experiences around the segyein are all that different, emotionally speaking.

I mean, of course objectively they have to be, but… his adopted life was a matter of observing his new environment, feeling like an absolute stranger because he's another species, but learning and adapting as quickly as possible in order to make himself a desirable pet that would be kept around. His experience being sent to Anakt and put in a human group was, again, feeling like a stranger because he's different to others of his own species, but learning and adapting as quickly as possible, eventually making himself an "acceptable", charming, absolutely cagey but near-perfect man. He succeeded both times.

He never did get rid of that awareness of being "twisted", though. After all, he also didn't unlearn all his survival patterns or fix the weak spots in his emotional development. As much as he progressed, the sense of not quite belonging and the faint relationship with his own humanity stayed. (With one big exception, but I'll leave that thought for the end of this ramble.)

In a way, I feel like this is exactly what made him so successful in segyein society as far as he lived. So adaptable that beyond being a good pet, he could also be trusted with and hold down an actual job, decent (faked or not, still good) relationships with segyein and, if he had any chance of survival, probably the capacity to live in their society with moderate perks.

Being an adaptable stranger who belonged nowhere in the first place… I think it's what made him more willing, more capable and more okay with mixing with the segyein like that, paired with his intelligence to pull it off.

No human pride to sacrifice. Not much humanity in the first place.

Except for the one noteworthy exception that shifted Ivan's growth: his relationship with Till.

Not only did Till embody things that Ivan lacked, which fascinated him from the start, but through his bond with him Ivan developed a lot of those traits and sensitivities that constitute peak humanity. It's a bit of the "love will make you human" trope, but on god does it apply. Ivan learned to care, to feel and to love, at times selfishly, at times messily. Buth he got pretty good at it; so much that love made him selfless and sacrificial in the end. He became a little more human for the object of his feelings. It didn't't erase all his struggles or fix his issues at large, but it was a lot. Of course he'd die thanking Till.

Anyway, that's all I wanted to get off my chest!

Humanity is a tough theme with Ivan, so I hope my thoughts about it were an interesting read.

The usual disclaimer: I've talked about 1 aspect of Ivan in this post, which does not mean this is all there is to his character or that I aim to invalidate other aspects. Just rotating this one in my head.

[persimminwrites]

HELLO HELLO you are right the venn diagram of arcane enjoyer and alnst fan is a circle

anyway. how we feeling after round 7(it was over a month ago but i am still reeling)

OMG HELLLOOOOO HIIIIII

i am feeling so very many emotions oh my gOD i just learned about alnst yesterday and now it has truly taken over my entire brain like AHHHHH I've already rewatched all of the videos 4 times ajsjsjs!!!! and round 7..... round 7 i -

i will put the rest of my thoughts below since it's a lot !!!!!!

im just going to make a list lmaoooo

TILLLLL AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH NOOOOOOOOOO TILLLLLLL AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH <- really no words can describe my agony rn. the way that he died in mizi's lap smiling and the cut between him looking down at a smiling mizi to him looking up at a crying mizi HOW FUCKIN DARE U VIVINOS !!!!!!!

ive only read back ~7 months of community posts on vivinos channel so i feel like im still learning about the lore of the show but from what ive gathered luka has already won alien stage once. so do contestants just compete infinitely? or could a winner "retire"? im so curious about why he re-entered unless he had no other choice

speaking of luka, on the edge of my seat about him facing hyuna at the end and them just staring at each other. again i don't know if i have the entire timeline straight in my head but i know the accident with hyuna's brother happened while she was still in the garden with luka. did she leave immediately after? is this really the first time they're seeing each other since. i wonder how much of luka's actions are just motivated by pure survival or if he's trying to find a way to see hyuna again? his face was so devoid of expression in his shock seeing her which i think is so interesting since most of the time he's on screen he has some emotion "pasted on" for show so i thought it was so impactful when his expression was "blank" when he was probably faced with a tidal wave of emotions at seeing her again

hyuna and mizi.... my queens.... what is to become of you...... WHY ARE YOU SPECIAL GUESTS

also the heist? operation? what info were they getting? maybe contestant locations? a database of the human "pets" locations??? what was the point. and why did it need to happen during the final round. also why did hyuna try to stop mizi from leaving initially? is it because she was hurt I HAVE SO MANY QUESTIONS

ivan..... seeing you as a twisted memory in luka's face..... AAWHHHHHHHHGGHHHHHHHGGHH stab me in the fucking heart :'((((((

also my personal theory is that the huge screens with ivan on them weren't literally there but more a representation of how ivan's actions and his presence are looming over till. till was still reeling from what happened with mizi in round 6 (which btw most devastating thing that has ever happened to me is watching that video wtf) and then ivan who has been a constant by his side and someone whose actions seem to be endlessly confusing and incomprehensible to till (that's based on my interpretation of what ive seen and read) goes and does THAT in this essay i will -

in conclusion i am in pain and i am nowhere near gathering all of my thoughts on this. i am diving headfirst into fics for comfort and i have a need, an itch, to write something from ivan's perspective from the beginning through round 6 I'm really obsessed with him and his dynamic with sua, mizi and till LIKE AAHHHHHHHHHH

now i get to join everyone in the torment of waiting for what comes next and im so so SO very excited to see what's going to happen !!!!!!!

[muchanmocha]

@geospiral

You get me-

Honestly Luka is definitely the biggest deciding factor in this scenario. He's the hardest one to get rid of for Final Round Mizi vs Sua to happen.

The easiest solution is to just say that he doesn't participate in Season 50, which would actually make sense for this AU because that would theoretically change up the initial match-ups.

But figuring out how to deal with Luka is a challenge... and I can't say no to a good challenge.

Here's my first shot at the idea:

Details under the cut

Round 1 — Mizi vs Acorn

Placed Mizi first because I think we definitely need a round where she performs before knowing everything

There's something unique about her singing that only exists under those circumstances, and that something will inevitably be lost after facing the horrors of Alnst

It would be a pity to to miss out on it just bc she saw the other rounds first

Also Acorn because I think it would be fun to pit love rivals against each other

Mizi and Acorn face off and on a skill level, Mizi has much more charisma on stage

Mizi was oblivious to his feelings for Sua before this but through performing together, notices and empathizes because she too loves Sua

But when it comes to loving Sua, she refuses to allow anyone to beat her

Acorn loses

Ofc when he's eliminated (read: killed), Mizi is shakened

Round 2 — Marty vs Sua

Mizi is wracked with worry as Sua takes the stage, but Sua sends her a comforting smile

I chose Marty because they have some overlap with Ivan in terms of general vibe/direction of their image as a performer

This in turn means they actually provide an interesting contrast with Sua on stage

I personally see Sua as similar in skill level as Ivan; that along with her existing fan population means the odds are stacked against Marty

Marty loses

Mizi is relieved. The second death is still horrible to watch, but she focuses on the relief of Sua safely winning her round

Round 3 — Ivan vs Durian

For similar reasons as the Marty vs Sua matchup

To no surprise, Ivan wins

Round 4 — Luka vs Till

I made a whole post about why I think Till lost in Round 7

But Round 2 Till did exactly what Round 7 Till didn't, and I think the conditions are right for him to pull the same move in this version of Round 4

Till overrides the bgm of the original song with Freddie and belts out UTTE

Honestly this could be the closest Luka ever gets to losing on Alien Stage

1) Till had been pretty subdued in the preliminaries previously so no one, not even Luka would have known he'd pull something like this

2) because it's Till's original song, Luka wouldn't know it

3) Till has a freakin guitar to overpower the og music

But those "imagine every scenario possible" trainings weren't for nothing

After a stumble, Luka regains his footing

He quickly catches on to the music, and uses the shortest time possible to learn the beat and grasp the general feel of the lyrics

The key point here is that I think Luka's violin would have been prepared for this stage considering Till is bringing his guitar; just to match and parallel each other on the stage

So before they could reach the second half of UTTE, Luka pulls out his violin (prob a segyein too haha) and with a single note, jams the rhythm Till was riding

Luka starts challenging Till through his violin; Till's competative spirit and anger for being interrupted starts to rise

They play back and forth aggressively, alternating between playing (in Luka's case) and singing

Luka gives an incredible display of skill — improvising lyrics as he sings; lyrics that thematically play off of UTTE's original lyrics while also challenging them

This further emphasizes the back and forth rhythm between he and Till, thoroughly decimating the one-sided flow Till had created at the beginning

At this point Luka has seized full control of the performance

Till loses

Till can only look on helplessly, as if his mind hasn't even fully caught up with what had just happened, as he's shot

Mizi is devastated, Sua looks away

Ivan watches it all with unblinking eyes

Round 5 — Ivan vs Luka

This turned out to be a twisted, warped parallel to Round 6:

It starts out calm enough

Ivan and Luka begin their performance

Luka provokes Ivan throughout the song with digs at the falsity of the life they both he lives

Luka weaves a narrative of the rise and fall of Ivan, who burned fast and bright — but will soon to be proven not bright enough

Yet in the end Ivan merely smiles, unshaken; because none of that really mattered

Luka has persisted in tugging at his strings this way and that all throughout the performance in an attempt to make him lose his cool

So Ivan shows him what he's like when he loses his cool, and snaps

Not because of Luka's provocations, but because he's stopped holding back all of the raw fury, loss, helplessness, torment, misery, and violence that had been brewing in him since watching Till's end in Round 4.

Ivan knew there was little chance from the start of him generating enough points to defeat Luka and proceed

So he decides to fully commit to satiating the maelstrom of sordid emotions within him

Ivan seizes Luka throat and strangles him to death on stage, his grip refusing to ease even after their bodies hit the floor

//considering how long it took for them to intercede when Mizi attacked Luka, and Ivan attacked Till in the og rounds, I think Ivan would've had the chance to succeed

//there's also a small aspect of Ivan knowing he can't beat Luka so he may as well take him down with him for Sua and Mizi's sake, but while I think that could be part of his reason when deliberating before the match, in the actual moment I think his actions would only be fueled by pure self-satisfaction and vengeance for Till

Round 6/Final Round — Mizi vs Sua

It's My Clematis of course

Mizi isn't doing so well. All of her friends whom she grew up with and see as family have just died horrifically in front of her one by one. Only she and Sua are left

She may be standing on this stage right now just like she and Sua have always dreamed of, but it's with the knowledge that if they don't succeed, if they truly don't become the first in all of Alnst history to tie, one of them will die

But they have no choice anymore, nowhere to back away to. Mizi stands there with trembling legs

Sua takes Mizi's hand in hers

Mizi looks at her and finds strength in that warmth. She gathers her courage — for Till and Ivan, for everyone else who died on Alien Stage, for Sua, for their dream — and sings

This rendition of My Clematis isn't filled with light as the original was, it is one haunted with the undertones of what they've seen and done to reach this place

But it is also filled with pained love and a prayer for their loved ones, including the hope for the other standing on the stage to live

They don't tie

Mizi sees the final score and her heart drops from her chest

She throws herself in front of Sua

And that's all I've got!

-

No matter how much I mulled things over, I can't imagine how any of the cast would be able to defeat Luka in a straight on fight, short of the wild card of Luka's heart issues acting up.

But narratively there's no way to integrate that — for it to just randomly happen without any trigger or reason is kinda meh. Sabotaging him somehow (ex. messing with his meds) is an option but none of the Season 50 contestants have the resources or access to him that would be needed for that plan, and honestly even for the most likely character to do so, Ivan, it isn't necessarily his style.

So the only answer I could come to is straightup murder on the stage ☆

I'm not 100% satisfied with this version because there are some plot holes and ideally Mizi and Sua would be in totally opposite brackets, but maybe I'll take another crack at it eventually.

I want an AU where Mizi and Sua meet in the final round instead